BANGALORE,
INDIA, Jan 28 (VNN) — When we (devotees at ISKCON Bangalore) came to
know that HG Basugosh Prabhu, was arranging a conference of Madhvas
& Srivaishnava Scholars to discuss the guru issue, we vehemently
opposed. As we found no authorization from Srila Prabhupada for such an
exercise.
We see HG Basugosh Prabhus' postings are misleading devotees around the world by his one sided presentation.
However, since the exercise has begun we find it
only appropriate to present the response of these scholars what they
actually say on this issue after objectively presenting the guru issue
to them.
 |
| Vidvan Gauranga Das |
HG Vidvan Gauranga Das had written in one of the postings on Chakra about these scholars:
'Vidyavachaspati'
Bannanje Govindachar: Disciple of Vidyamanya Tirtha Swami, Mathadhisa of
Palimara Matha. He is a very prominent lecturer and scholar, recognized
by the 8 mathas. Bannanje Govindachar, the Maadhva devotee-scholar was
awarded the title: 'Vidyaa-vaachaspati' by one of the 8 Madhva-mathas.
 |
| HH Rangapriya Swami |
(for the information of the readers, these two
above mentioned scholars were not invited to the conference by HG
Basugosh Prabhu!)
The following was a short interview with HH Rangapriya Swami:
Question: According to Srila Prabhupada's letter of July 9th,
1977, if we accept Srila Prabhupada as the diksa guru and receive
initiation from the ritviks, is this system in accordance to sastric
principles, what is your holiness' opinion?
HH Rangapriya Swami: It
appears from the system of initiation that Srila Prabhupada has
proposed in his letter of July 9th 1977, that he wished to remain the
diksha-acharya, vanquish sinful reactions of the disciples, take the
responsibility of delivering his disciples and this way continue the
parampara through the rtviks. This is a new system. Since such new
systems have been created in the past by the acaryas, it appears that
Srila Prabhupada desired such a system. This is our humble opinion and
it is not in violation of any shastric principles.
Question: Do we have to fear that the Parampara will stop if we follow the ritvik system?
HH Rangapriya Swami: By
this system we do not have to fear that the parampara may stop. The
rtviks belong to his parampara. The new disciples also belong to his
parampara. Who ever follows his instructions also belong to his
parampara. His books will represent him; his peeta (the sacred seat)
will represent him; his sandals will represent him; his murtis will
represent him.
Question: If we ask the new disciples initiated by this system, 'Whose disciple are you?" what should they say?
HH Rangapriya Swami: They should say, 'Srila Prabhupada is my guru.' Others can be called ritviks and can be respected for their seniority.
Question: As long as ISKCON exists, can this system be followed?
HH Rangapriya Swami: Yes, there is no problem.
Copy of the letter given to ISKCON Bangalore on 11th Jan 1999
I have acquainted myself with the life and message
of His Holiness Srila Prabhupada including his message in the letter of
July 9th, 1977. I also understand there is some controversy going on
among the disciples of the great guru regarding the positions of the
diksha guru and officiating acharyas called rtvik acharyas who give
diksha as deputees of the original acharya, even as Prince Bharata
officiated as the ruler on behalf of Sri Rama's padukas.
In this connection, keeping in view the spirit of
Srila Prabhupada and the continuation of the great tradition given by
him, we recommend that the office of the rtvik acharyas should continue
as intended by Srila Prabhupada.
Srila Prabhupada's system accords a unique
position to the acarya by declaring that he should be a Master Yogin,
who takes upon himself the spiritual responsibility of the disciples
including the destruction of all their sins and deserves worship due to
Bhagavan Himself.
The rtvik acharya continue the line of HH Srila
Prabhupada, and he should be accorded reverence in accordance with his
contributions. But he should not be considered as an object of
meditation and worship. Nor should he be considered as infallible. He
should be appointed by the governing council and give diksha as a
deputee of Srila Prabhupada without violating the letter and spirit of
his message.
The rtvik system propounded by Srila Prabhupada does not violate in anyway the shastras' injunctions.
Signed
Rangapriya Swami
Rangapriya Swami
Interview With Sri Bannanje Govindacharya
 |
| HG Vidvan Gauranga Dasa |
It may be recalled that HG Vidvan Gauranga Dasa posted a report of
his meeting two eminent vaishnavas in Bangalore, namely Vidyavacaspati
Sri Bannaje Govindacharya (a grhasta madhva scholar). When devotees of
ISKCON Bangalore showed the report to Sri Bananje Govindacharya, he said
that the reporting was partial and did not completely represent his
views. The devotees continued their discussion with him and it was
recorded. Later the interview was transcribed, taken back to him for
review so that he is satisfied that we represent his views properly this
time. We provide the same here:
Below is an interview with Sri Bannanje Govindacarya, original tape available:
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: Meaning of diksha is to give adhikara in a mantra or any system or in a faith. Who can give initiation? In fact if I want to initiate somebody into gayatri, I must be a realised person. Gayatri sakshatkara is the first requirement for a diksha guru. Siddhi or perfection. Mantra siddhi.
Otherwise one cannot give mantra diksha to others, according to
shastra. So simply giving Diksha and canceling and taking again another
diksha - that is all ashastric, not according to shastra... So this is
the problem when we institutionalize a faith. We have to face all these
problems, because when you institutionalize faith then all the
institutional and organizational problems enter and all the
organizational problems will come. Actually according to shastra, none of these swamis can initiate… No swami unless he has attained sakshatkar or mantra siddhi he cannot initiate. That is what….told was correct. Unless he has that power to take the sishya
into that height, that elevation, initiation becomes a mere mechanical
procedure. It has no meaning. If I want to initiate you I must be able
to bring you to that plane and you must be able to meditate upon that
mantra and that power should be given. Initiation is not mere mechanical
procedure. That is a transformation of a power, mantric and spiritual
power and a person who has actually no spiritual power how can he give
spiritual power to a sisya. It cannot be claimed by a mere post or
institutional powers. Initiation is totally different.
ISKCON devotee: The point is the
11 ritviks, only on the assumption that Prabhupada is not on the planet
they stopped continuing to be ritviks. Is that correct or wrong? We are
saying, " you don't have an explicit order. A clear order of the acharya
is needed to become a diksha guru. Srila Prabhupada made a system-you
stopped the acharya's order!" We are questioning. They are not able to
justify that. So are they correct in their justification or wrong?
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: No…do they claim that they are no more ritviks?
ISKCON devotee: They say that
they are no more ritviks. They are regular gurus. Regular gurus means,
as I told you the definition, according to Srila Prabhupada's teachings,
it is very serious thing. It is a very big thing.
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: Yes.
See that is why I have told this is clash between the organization and
the spiritual practice. When the spiritual practices become
institutionalized, then the institution has certain… it is totally left
to the …you are correct. There is no letter or there is no resolution,
any orders. In an institution anything can be changed. The governing
body is there and by majority they can vote and they can have a
resolution. They can change anything. According to rules and
regulations. But that is left to the organizational rules and
regulations.
That is what I have told, according to shastra,
the religious or spiritual part of diksha - giving diksha, a person who
has siddhi - siddhapurusa can give diksha to others. Otherwise it has no meaning at all. It is not a mechanical thing.
ISKCON devotee: So their another
argument is that because it is not normal, according to tradition just
like son becomes father, it is natural. So naturally disciple becomes
guru. This is also natural. So we have become gurus. So if we follow
ritvik, because it is non traditional, not in the sampradaya, we stopped
practicing it. Is it really apasampradaya? To follow acharya's ajna?
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: Is it
apasampradaya means here in other sampradayas, particularly in the
vaishnava sampradaya or the madhva mutts, their mantra diksha is to be
taken by a living guru. It is a tradition. Strictly speaking, diksha
even here when a swami gives mantra or upadesha to a disciple, the inner
concept is that the living guru is not the real guru. Madhvacharya is
there in his body and through living guru the spirit, actually the
original spirit of Madhvacharya, the original spirit of living guru that
is what is functioning. That concept is there. But a diksha living guru
is a must in tradition. It is there. That is why they say
apasampradaya. See in all other sampradayas diksha swekara from a living
guru is generally accepted in all… see it is in practice even in Madhva
mutt.
ISKCON devotee: So Prabhupada
appointed these ritviks to do the external aspects of the diksha, like
gving mala, spiritual name, etc These are to be done through a living
ritviks. So ritviks are living. But the roles are defined and the real
aspect of the diksha, giving transcendental knowledge and taking the
responsibility of delivering the disciple, Prabhupada continues to do
it. In that sense is it apasampradaya?
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: No we
cannot say that. Because what is sampradaya? Sampradaya is again a
constitution- a spiritual institution. And it is followed by centuries
and centuries by the sisyas. So any system that is in practice for more than 100 years, it becomes sampradaya!
ISKCON devotee: Now since no acharya in the past has formed an international society…
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: Yes,
that is why I have told you, sampradaya means also, it is a spiritual
constitution, which should not go against the spirit of vedic teachings.
That's all.
ISKCON devotee: So is the ritvik
system, taking mala, name, etc from living ritviks and considering Srila
Prabhupada as the diksha guru, violating vedic spirit?
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: No no nothing, nothing. That is not that…
ISKCON devotee: This ritvik
system, where Prabhupada in his absence where they act, you know these
ritviks as his representatives, and giving, conducting this ceremony
while still Prabhupada as the diksha guru, if this process if we
continue, is it violating any vedic sastra?
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: You see it can be done like this. Everybody must take diksha before the vigraha of Prabhupada.
ISKCON devotee: Prabhupada murthi's are kept everywhere in ISKCON temples.
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: You
have a temple of Prabhupada, and before Prabhupada himself, no others
can give diksha and these people provide name and mala. The diksha
should be in the presence of Prabhupada's vigraha. That will be better.
That would be better. There will be no problem. Just to avoid problems,
see so many gurus, they will leave peeta (the sacred seat), they are
falling down. Just to avoid this, you take initiation before
Prabhupada's vigraha.
ISKCON devotee: We are actually
not saying that this should be practiced because of a reaction for the
fall down of gurus. Even if the gurus are not falling down we are saying
you should still follow this because it is the acharya's ajna.
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: Yes, I
have simply told… This can also be avoided. No, that is not the only
reason because in fact that is my concept. People ask me who is your
guru. I have been taught by so many swamji's . I have not been initiated
into sanyasa. That is different. People ask me, "You are being an
eminent scholar, who is your guru." Then I used to say, "Madhvacharya is
my guru. None else." I don't accept anybody else as my direct guru.
Even now if I have got any doubt, I put the question before Madhvacharya
and he must send the message, the answer to my mind and I don't ask
anybody! So this is a very powerful practice. Taking initiation from
mula guru. See these people are instruments, to provide this and that,
what ever is required.
ISKCON devotee: For that we are saying, we will respect them and …
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: If
that vision is created, it will be a very powerful, very good system.
There will be no controversy. All the problems will be avoided.
ISKCON devotee: Will this stop the parampara? They claim that this will stop the parampara.
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: Why? Taking initiation from mula guru and following the parampara. How can it be stopped?
ISKCON devotee: This is one of
their objections. You can't take from a departed acharya because it will
stop the parampara. So who will continue the parampara? That is what
they are asking.
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: See
Guru parampara means, now here is Madhvacharya, (pointing to the
disciplic succession listed in Bhagavad Gita As It Is) and then this
swami, and his swami, like that 31 swamis are there. So this parampara
will be there. Everybody is disciple of guru, Prabhupada. Prabhupada and
his disciple, his disciple, his disciple - this parampara will not be
there. That is alright.
ISKCON devotee: That is what
Pejavar Swami said, "Peeta parampara (the succession of the sacred seat
of the institutional head) will not be there. But upadesha parampara
will continuue…"
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: There
is no problem in that. It is there in practice in Madhva mathas because
the guru initiates the disciple. When that tradition is not there,
Prabhupada himself is the initiating or diksha guru, then his matha
parampara will not be there.
ISKCON devotee: But will that not stop the parampara?
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: No, no
how. No question of stopping. Parampara does not stop. All this in an
institution, all seniority, junior swamis, who is to become President,
something, this and that. All those problems will arise. Managerial
problems and institutional problems may be there but in spiritual
practice there is no problem. Here there are two aspects. One is
external - institutional, managerial problems. When you build an
institution, there should be some constitution, some managerial….
ISKCON devotee: That Prabhupada has said GBC is the ultimate managing authority…
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: And this should not be mixed up with the spiritual practices. It is different.
ISKCON devotee: Now they show the
principle, they quote, many places where Prabhupada expressed himself,
"I want each of my disciples to become gurus."
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya:
Anybody can become guru. He can teach vaishnava siddhanta to the masses
and he can become guru. To become guru… Giving diksha is not the only
method of becoming guru. If I want to become guru, I must teach my
disciples and I am guru. My students are there. They give respect to me.
They say he is my guru. He taught me this omkar. That is all. Without
knowing … Guruhood should come through his knowledge and his
practice…..I mean tapasya. It cannot be demanded.
ISKCON devotee: In other words siksha. You can always be siksha guru.
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: I can
teach others. But diksha guru….well, unless I have that power I cannot
give diksha to others. So again how can I claim that I have that power.
"You don't have that power. I will give you that power…" It is all again
a controversy. There is no end to this controversy.
ISKCON devotee: According to Madhva siddhanta, can a mahabhagavatha fall down? Uttam adhikari, mahabhagavatha?
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: The
question is irrelevant. Because if he is a mahabhagavatha, he cannot
fall. If he falls down he is not a mahabhagavatha. What is the
definition of mahabhagavatha? First we have to know that. According to
the Bhagavata purana, a person who has practiced the vaishnava system
according to Maha Srimad Bhagavatha and has reached certain level. Then
if he is mahabhagavatha, he cannot come down. He cannot fall down.
Sometimes it happens, even realised souls have prarabhdha karma. That is
also told. Even the realised souls who have seen Narayana face to face,
eye to eye, Vishnu sakshat kara is there, after realisation also due to
prarabdha karma also some people may fall down. That is there in the
scriptures.
Generally mahabhagavatha cannot fall down -
Its very rare - some earth breaking instances -
You leave it, it's only for argument sake.
Devotee: Do you agree that one
can become guru only on the order of his guru? Or can he just become
guru? How can he become guru? - giving diksha. Prabhupada says that it
is a rule that he has to get an order to continue the parampara. What do
you say?
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: Through
guru parampara giving initiation is in practice in so many systems. In
Madhva system it is there, in Shankara and Ramanuja system. In all the
systems now the person who is authorised to give initiation comes in the
peeta (sacred seat of the institutional head). Whoever comes in the
peeta is authorised to give. That tradition is there now. And in fact,
this is just a managerial system, administrative system. Just to solve
the administrative problem, they have adopted this method. Strictly
speaking, in the spiritual field anybody can initiate who is siddha
purusha and even if not entitled by guru. Traditionally this is not
accepted. If I am a mantra siddha, I need not have a sanction from my
guru or any tradition. I can initiate anybody. This is sastric. But
there are two things - institutional systems is that only the
peeta-adhipati (the person presiding over the peeta) guru can initiate.
That is the system in the Madhva mutts. In fact only siddha purusa can
initiate and he need not be a siddha purusa who has come in the
traditional way in the peeta.
ISKCON devotee: But he has to be authorised.
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: He is authorised.
ISKCON devotee: If he is a siddha purusa, automatically the authorisation will be there for him.
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: Yes,
yes. That's what I am saying. If he is not siddha purusa, though he is
there in the peeta, lineage, according to sastra he is not authorised.
But the present system accepts that he is guru! But according to the
sastra, he need not come in the peeta, if he is a siddha purusa and he
is realised, he can give diksha to anyone. There is no sanction of
tradition that is necessary to accept him as guru. The only requirement
for diksha is I must be a realised person, siddha purusa of that mantra
which I am giving you. If it is Vishnu mantra, I must be siddha in that
Vishnu mantra or Narayana mantra or whatever it is. This is not only
giving mantra upadesa but this is accepting somebody into the fold of a
certain system. Then some system must be there. Its again
institutionalisation. Some system. Then whatever the tradition says that
is to be accepted to accept him into this fold. So all the other
sampradayas accept that there is a guru paramapara in the peetas and
they are entitled to give diksha. According to sastra anybody can give
mudra dharana. I can give mudra to my children. But according to the
present practice in the mutts, sampradaya system, they do not accept it.
They say, "Only we have the authority. Only we have the authority. We
can give mudra dharana. But nobody else…" Some of our swamis say, "These
people belong to Uttaradi mutt, they belong to Pejawar mutt.." and so
on. Again there is division. "And you cannot take vaishnava diksha from
some other swami. I am your mula vidya guru. You take diksha from me."
No it has become a social right. Spirituality has nothing to do with
this. This is again the present plight of the muttas. There are two
things. One is the social aspect of traditional acceptance, another is
spiritual practice.
ISKCON devotee:That's interesting. So we understand that the spiritual component of diksha Prabhupada retains for himself.
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: Yes
that is what I am saying. It is safe. If we accept the spiritual diksha
is Prabhupada, if we accept that then so many problems will be solved.
ISKCON devotee: According to our
Governing Body themselves, they agree that they cannot deliver the souls
back to Krishna. It is Prabhupada only that much they agree. The only
thing is they don't want to give Prabhupada the post of diksha guru. Of
course now the siddhanta is diluted so much because of the lack of
qualified diksha gurus that they are saying that even a kanistha
adhikari or madhyama adhikari can become guru. But Prabhupada cannot
become diksha guru. His only disqualification is that he is not present
with us.
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: In
other sampradayas they say that only living guru can give diksha.
Therefore they are also claiming the same thing. In other sampradayas
the diksha guru must be a living guru. He cannot give diksha with his
spiritual body, non material body. He must give with his gross material
body only - that tradition is there. This is not siddhanta or
apasiddhanta. Tradition is a social system. It is nothing to do with the
spiritual. Society accepted this just to have a control on disciples
from the peeta or matha. Swami should have certain control of the
disciples. So they have accepted certain rights - they are his
copyrights! So that he can have certain control over the society. This
is a social system presently accepted by the spiritual priests.
Philosophy and practice have nothing to do with it.
ISKCON devotee: I cannot claim to
become regular guru - for that I have to provide evidence. These are
the only two questions we are asking them.
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: Spiritually
you are correct. For the organizational system if there is any thing to
be done, that is left to you. I don't know. If there is any social
problem it has to be set right.
ISKCON devotee: In short, is the ritvik system against any vedic system?
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: It is
neither vedic nor non vedic. Just to have an international contact,
Prabhupada himself created this system and he is the final authority. It
is not against the preaching of the vedas.
ISKCON devotee: So Prabhupada can remain a diksha guru and these people can conduct just like the ritviks?
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya: That
can be done. There is no problem in this system. Because it is an
international institution it is natural that all the people may not be
scholars in sastras or sanskrit. But they will be managerial heads. That
is why it is inevitable to accept Prabhupada as diksha guru. It is
essential thing to accept him as diksha guru and these are the
instruments.
